My local Byzantine Catholic Church
I try to avoid getting into traditionalist issues on this blog because they normally involve a lot of drama. Should faithful Catholics attend SSPX chapels? I will admit that I’ve been to the local SSPX chapel, though I can count the number of times on one hand. I remember one time it was the Feast of the Immaculate Conception and my Church wasn’t having a mass and I really wanted to go so I went to the SSPX chapel. I’ve also gone to masses offered by the Resistance which is a breakaway group from the SSPX because they thought they were too liberal. I haven’t been to either in years. I’ve never gone to a sedevacantist mass and I never will.
There are many questions as to whether their sacraments are valid or licit. Mountains of books have been written on both sides and I don’t want to get into that here. I also want to say that I admire much of the writings of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. His book They Have Uncrowned Him is a brilliant work against modernism.
There are many holy and devout Catholics who attend these chapels. The problem is, that they have no influence in the Church. Their priests and bishops don’t have any influence in the church either. If they were in full communion, they’d be able to influence the church in the country they’re in. Imagine if some of their priests or bishops were delegates at the recent Amazon Synod in Rome.
I would ask my fellow Catholics to attend their local diocesan Latin mass and help grow the community. The more Catholics within the institution of the Church who are traditional, the more traditional vocations we will have. Please fight with us. I pray that the SSPX gets in with a personal prelature status similar to Opus Dei.
I know the big question that’s coming up. What if you live in an area where the only TLM is an SSPX chapel. This is unfortunate and I feel the pain of these people. I couldn’t imagine not having a TLM to attend every Sunday. There are two options. The first is to seek out an Eastern Rite Church. In Canada or even America this shouldn’t be a problem. Eastern liturgies are just as beautiful and ancient as the TLM. My entire maternal family is Byzantine Catholic as they are Ukrainian. There are many Byzantine Catholic churches in Canada. I attend a Byzantine Catholic church with my mom when I visit my hometown.
The second option is to keep asking your local priest to say the TLM. A lot of young priests say the TLM in private. I know of several in my own diocese. You can also go to the bishop. If they have requests from enough people they will be have no choice but to request a local priest to say the TLM. At this point, they can start to build the community.
Also, both steps can be done together. If you attend a Byzantine Catholic Church you could still try to request a TLM from a local priest or bishop. It would be so nice to grow our community so that we could have more influence. Tradition is addictive. My church offers a low and high mass. I attend the Low Mass at 7:15 am on Sunday. When I started attending full time in early 2013 the low mass had about two or three dozen people attending. Yesterday there was about 200. The high mass is packed and you need to show up early to find seating.
I encourage all Catholics in love with tradition to stay within the institutional church. We need the influence inside to go to war with modernists like Bishop Erwin Krautler who are destroying the faith of many Catholic people.
SSPX? Never heard of it. And the only time I heard of sedevacantist stuff was when I looked up Mel Gibson on Wikipedia.
I comment thus because many of us are just straightforward Roman Catholics just trying to get on in life, to read the Gospel and try to understand things a bit better. We are fortunate that as convinced Christians we have a good start in understanding the Truth about existence and God. It is bad enough to have to encounter evils such as modern Atheism and the pernicious, stultifying lies of Mohammed without having disession in the ranks of Christians.
I for one will be trying to keep things simple. Even though I have a very poor opinion of the Pope (I am a admirer of Benedict XVI) and consider that the Catholic Church is in error on a number of things (or could do many things better), it is still the Church and I would not be parted from it.
Hey Christopher,
Thanks for sharing your opinion on this.
God bless,
Allan
One of the good things from visiting this site is that it gives one opportunities to learn and to think.
Having said all that (above) and now that I have looked into this a bit more I can appreciate that the these other organisations might be attractive because they provide something that seems to be otherwise missing. I am thinking particularly of the Traditional Latin Mass: I have never attended one but I think I can see the attraction. Changes in the 1960s to have the priest face the congregation rather than lead the people facing the tabernacle so much depends on the personality of the priest, and his foibles and shortcomings are more exposed. The priest appears to be the focus of attention rather than the presence of God.
It makes me despondent to think about the poor way that we worship at Mass. We are obliged to sing/listen to banal and childish “hymns” often chosen without respect to the liturgy, and they are to often sung to the accompaniment of a guitar. I understand from my father (who is a choirmaster and organist) that churches are ignoring the rulebook when it comes to Church music and this should not be happening.
Standards of behaviour in church are poor, people talk loudly before Mass when it ought to be a time of prayer and preparation. Children are not controlled properly (this has become more noticeable following the influx of large numbers foreign Catholics who seem to have different standards than we were used to). Admittedly this distracting behaviour is from a minority, but it distracts all the same. I can usually spot men wearing hats in church and some people chew gum and check their phones.
What we seem to lack during Mass and in churches generally is a sense of the Transcendant and the Holy.
I recently returned from Prague where I visited St Agnes Convent. It contained a collection of mediaeval art that included painting, wood carvings and triptychs. They were examples of great craftsmanship and piety. It is easy to imagine the profound feelings that they would have inspired in their mediaeval settings, settings that were tranquil, reverent and holy. We appear to have lost that.
So much has been discarded since the 1960s, and I forced to conclude the decline in attendance at Mass is due to these changes. When Westerners adopt exotic religions it is often because of a sense of mysticism and spirituality. We tend to lack that as Western Christians, so perhaps SSPX, TLM are good things. The Church really needs to accommodate such movements and rediscover the Holy and the Transcendent. We need to ensure people do not need to go outside the Roman Catholic Church to find that.
Hey Christopher,
From what I understand, there are a lot of TLMs in England. Some are SSPX but others aren’t. The FSSP who does the mass that I attend has parishes in London and Warrington. I don’t know if you’re close to either. However, there are other Traditionalist groups that put them on(fully approved by the bishop) and even some diocesan priests do the TLM. England has one of the largest traditionalist movements in the world per capita, along with America and France.
My priest told me something a few weeks back. He said that St. John Vianney is quoted as saying that England would be Catholic again some day. I’m certainly praying for it.
God bless,
Allan
I”m new here, what does TLM and SSPX mean?
Hello,
TLM is Traditional Latin Mass. SSPX is Society of St. Pius X.
God bless,
Allan
So there are still Catholic emotionally attached to having Mass in Latin? I’d compare them to Sub only Anime fans but at least Japanese is a language people actually still Speak.
I’m sure you don’t intend sounding like a complete dork. You admit to being new here and your first question illustrates your complete and utter ignorance. For your information, Catholic means universal and the universal language of The Church was Latin oh, I don’t know, until 1969, when a bunch of modernist wreckers turned what was truly One Holy Catholic and Apostolic into a cheap imitation of the Tower of Babel! The fight back is well underway Deo Gratias (that’s Latin for thanks be to God). Your ignorance is forgiven, but you have more work to do to redeem your stupid comment! God bless you.
I’m not a Catholic but on some issues surprisingly willing to side with Catholics over Protestants, which is why I check out Catholic and Orthodox blogs.
BUT To me Church should not be a Ritual but Believers getting together and talking about their Faith. It should be a glorified Book Club for The Bible. And the only other Languages I don’t actually speak I see having any value in contributing to that would be the Languages the Bible was originally written in, Hebrew, Greek and a little Aramaic.
Some Catholics may be emotionally attached to the Latin mass, however there are good reasons for preferring it that are not founded in emotion.
I used to think as you do now, but I am beginning to suspect that Bishop Lefebvre did the right thing. I always argued against the people who said that the FSSP would not exist if it were not for the SSPX, therefore the SSPX is good. I still don’t like that type of reasoning after the fact. But seeing as we must act according to our well informed consciences and you know, even better than I, what sort of intellect and good man Archbishop Lefebvre was, how can we say that we know for certain that what he did was wrong. I am tending more towards saying that he was correct and that the difficulties of his order such as they are, are the difficulties of a child abandoned by his father.
The SSPX even seeks reunion with the current people at the Vatican. Some say it is madness to do so right now, but they want to see if it can be done instead of just ignoring the people currently in the Holy See and sitting on Peter’s chair.
This question will only be a problem for attendees of the FSSP mass, if say our FSSP priests put up with a Pachamama behind the altar and not just an ugly wood carving attempting to represent our Lord and Saviour or the removal of the Tabernacle veil.
How can traditional Catholics still not understand that without The Most Reverend Marcel Lefebvre and the faithful SSPX of today, there would be no TLM at all? It is them that forced the Vatican and successive popes to tolerate it and to ultimately allow it, even when it was actively being suppressed. Those that are uninformed will today say that the true mass was never suppressed, but this is simply untrue. Although it now seems it was never outlawed by official decree, faithful bishops at the time were threatened with excommunication, altars had to be saved in midnight moves and the backlash directed at traditional followers from tepid boomers was nothing short of systematic oppression. It might not have ever been “officially” outlawed, but the hierarchy made very attempt to make it appear so and to make it virtually impracticable. I live in the city that the TLM first received an indult and I can tell you that those days were as the days of the catacombs. They were form one day to the next thrown out form their churches and had to worship in the dark and then, only because some courageous bishop allowed them to do so, against the Vatican’s wishes. This spirit that would destroy tradition still exists today. It would be an easy feat, with the FSSP not having any consecrated bishops, to decree that the TLM and those parishes that rely on diocesan approval and support to operate are now irregular, and that anyone practicing the TLM has broken communion with the Holy father. They don’t care what you think. So you say that the FSSP is growing and we have many traditional priests and the pews at the local FSSP parishes are full and many new converts to the TLM are being made. Fine, but what happens when all those faithful now find themselves outside the Church because this or the next Pope has declared the TLM invalid? What will all those priests do when they find themselves outside looking in, with no consecrated bishops to validate them? Do you think they will chose to fall into the fold and attend the Norvus Ordo or will they finally start supporting the SSPX? You have to admit it to yourselves, without the thorn in the side of the Vatican that is the SSPX, we would have no FSSP. And when the time comes that traditional Catholics face active and official suppression, you will be glad of the foresight and actions of Marcel Lefebvre in consecrating those bishops and ensuring that there remains validly ordained Catholic priests and bishops. Without the SSPX, there is no FSSP and when they are gone, so will be the FSSP. Each allows the other to exist. Period. So, please spare us the haughty opinions and realize that these are our brothers-in-arms and they need our support, not our disdain. Go the FSSP, or go the SSPX or better yet, do both. But please don’t further weaken the clans by this petty infighting.
I am finding what you have written very helpful, Phil. Thank you.
I agree that the state of the Church necessitated Arvhbishop Lefebvre’s decision. But I do like to insist that we do not ever know what would have happened if something else hadn’t happened. I just don’t think that type of reasoning is reasonable!
What convinced me that the Archbishop could not do anything other than what he did, was learning more about the state of the church at that time. It was so awful, so horrendously overtaken by people with no virtue and even the Pope was doing terrible things. It was clearly a crisis. Then again, we are in even worse times now, but as we are blessed with access to proper teaching, we just have more motivation to persevere in the ordinary life of grace that Phil says is our only true and best recourse.
Oh and btw, I find it laughable that you think we, as traditional Catholics that attend the FSSP or the SSPX, “have influence in the Church”. And tell me, how much “influence” do you think we, or those of the byzantine or eastern rites have? Our goal as traditional Catholics is to save souls and preserve and practice the faith as it was handed down to us, not to play politics or influence Vatican politics, like we know what’s going on. This is the equivalent of the secular and false notion of “voting strategically”, which relies on the assumption that you have the correct information and that you know enough to influence events in the manner you intend. You don’t. God has made available both the SSPX and the FSSP to save souls and to lead to a catholic restoration. To devolve into useless and futile questions about the validity of this consecration or that sacrament is legalism akin to that of the pharisees. To think that communion or confession or any other sacrament offered by faithful and loyal catholic priests and bishops would be invalid because of that tittle or that jot, is simply ridiculous.
Hello Phil,
“How can traditional Catholics still not understand that without The Most Reverend Marcel Lefebvre and the faithful SSPX of today, there would be no TLM at all?”
I agree. I’m just saying that it’s more prudent in 2019 to be in the church than outside it. My article was about strategy, I didn’t bash the SSPX or people who attend.
“You have to admit it to yourselves, without the thorn in the side of the Vatican that is the SSPX, we would have no FSSP.”
All of your arguments regarding the SSPX can apply to the resistance as well. Why do you not support the resistance?
“Oh and btw, I find it laughable that you think we, as traditional Catholics that attend the FSSP or the SSPX, “have influence in the Church”.”
We don’t, but if we could double or triple our numbers we could. That’s my whole point. What’s the best option to do in 2019? That’s the whole point of my article. I never even brought up the FSSP in the article. They’re one of the groups within the church who does TLM but certainly not the only one. It would be nice if more diocesan priests would say it as well. Some do.
“To devolve into useless and futile questions about the validity of this consecration or that sacrament is legalism akin to that of the pharisees. To think that communion or confession or any other sacrament offered by faithful and loyal catholic priests and bishops would be invalid because of that tittle or that jot, is simply ridiculous.”
I specifically said that I wasn’t going to talk about that. My post was about strategy and what to do in 2019.
Allan
Hi Allan,
Thanks for your reply.
Your first point is well reasoned but moot. The SSPX is indeed inside the Church, and as you know about Lefebvre, it pained him very much to have to do what he did. Although he died excommunicated, that was lifted post-humously. At no point did Lefevre or his SSPX want to be outside the Church and it’s very telling that they were made “irregular” for simply trying to do what the Church had done for 1930 some years. To add yet another point you haven’t asked for… The SSPX is still today very active in ministry and in spreading the gospel to the four corners of the world, as our Lord had directed. At their own expense and sacrifice. They are going to those difficult areas and taking up the mission that the Jesuits used to do so well. They are true catholics.
Disagree on the SSPX resistance. They have taken themselves out due to being obstinate. This is contrary in fact to what was done to the SSPX. Although I like Bishop Williamson, I fear he has been misled and I hope he comes back.
As for your third point…let’s not kid ourselves, the FSSP is the largest traditional order within the church and we can’t talk the TLM and a Catholic revival without mentioning them. There is simply no other order with the resources that they have. To your point, if any diocesan priests are now offering the TLM, it’s probably to avoid falling into irrelevance as their congregation dies off. The problem I see is this, they are currently leeching parishioners and resources from orders such as the SSPX, which desperately need the resources and the support to continue their mission and the continue to be a thorn in the Vatican’s side. I may be disregarding my own advise here, but if you want to vote strategically, you have to put your money on that order which has a chance of actually representing us in Rome, that is, the one with actual, validly consecrated bishops. My own opinion is that the FSS was allowed to operate as a containment strategy and that without bishops, they will always be at the mercy of diocesan bishops. We have plenty of those now and I don’t see many actively supporting the Trads, besides happily taking their diocesan taxes. There are a few, as my own, but not enough. In addition those younger traditional priests what may one day lead to any kind of restoration are mostly being attracted to seminaries run by the FSSP as there is simply no other way to be well versed in tradition and the TLM. Those guys we pin our hopes on aren’t, for the most part going the diocesan route and I believe that structure is in danger itself.
On your last point,
OK fair enough, but is directing people away from the SSPX not a tacit acceptance of those arguments against it? I think we in 2019 have to conserve the Faith by supporting all those good Catholic orders that preserve tradition, not to “split the vote” to again use the secular analogy. Both the FSSP and the SSPX have a role to play in God’s plan and they both need our support. I’m sorry but I can’t throw my support behind a structure that has so far failed us. I for one, attend both and if I fail to make to heaven, it certainly won’t be because I chose to live my faith according to the tradition of my forefathers.
Phil,
All of these minor details aside, what is your plan for fixing the Church? You probably agree with me that the greatest enemies of the Church today are on the inside.
A lot depends on the next papacy. There are no tradionalist Cardinals, but there are Cardinals who are more conservative and friendly to tradition – Burke, Mueller, Sarah, etc. If someone like them gets elected, they would probably halt these dumb synods and give more clout to those with our views.
The Church wasn’t destroyed overnight and it won’t be fixed overnight. It’ll take decades. If Burke, Mueller, or Sarah become Pope then they’ll be more favorable to us, but they probably won’t look at the SSPX because they’re outside the Church. If they were in, there would be more to work with.
What do you think needs to be done?
Btw, I met Bishop Williamson in June 2015. This was when I was hanging around the Resistance crew.
Allan
Hi Allan,
Oh boy, that’s a good question. But I have to ask, do you think it’s up to us to fix it? Isn’t it kind of a free-masonic poison idea that we have any kind of control or influence at all, and that if we just knew a little more, or did a little more or intervened more strategically, we could influence the course of history? Isn’t that at it’s core essentially the same thing as the now infamous “Jewish revolutionary spirit” which is of this world? Isn’t this constant intervention and disobedience of man what is really screwing things up? I think we have to ask ourselves if that is really what our Good Lord Jesus wants. And I think that many make the mistake of thinking that they can play by the rules of this world and engage the enemy on his terms, and still come out a winner. Francis only wins if we start playing his game, if we start to “vote strategically” or despair rather than simply following tradition. This is why he is reduced to “changing” doctrine from an Airbus lavatory rather than doing it ex-cathedra. He seeks to confuse and demoralize but he has no real power over us. He is a sad man when you think about it. I’m certainly not afraid of him. Just laugh it off.
I’ll spare you the rest of my ramblings as I think it’s clear to all that as simple pew-warmers, there isn’t anything we can do beside not despairing, praying and fasting and supporting those orders that staunchly maintain tradition, no matter who they are. I simply don’t know enough to have any kind of idea as to how to effectively clear up this mess. It’s just not my job. So in short, support tradition at all costs, band together, maybe write a letter or two to your bishops. But most of all, pray, fast, participate in the sacraments and as always, be fruitful and multiply, have many kids. We can politik all day long but that’s really all Jesus asked of us.
I’ll have to correct you again though, and this is because I hear this time and time again. The SSPX is in no conceivable way, outside of the catholic Church. This is simply wrong. The mass is licit, they can ordain priests, they can licitly hear confessions and can preside over marriages. They have officially recognized and validly ordained bishops. There are no active ex-communications. It sounds to me that they are clearly “inside” the Church. I still fail to see how you think that shopping for parishes that offer the token-TLM is a better option than supporting those true Catholics that have decided to take a stand for tradition. I know that for myself, I am not afraid of being “outside the church” simply for following tradition. It is them whom would be anathema should they chose to destroy orders such as the SSPX or the FSSP and make tradition unavailable. If it comes to that, the choice is clear and so is my conscience. In any case, we can never be wrong when we listen to God;
Jeremiah 6:16
[16] Thus saith the Lord: Stand ye on the ways, and see and ask for the old paths which is the good way, and walk ye in it: and you shall find refreshment for your souls.
I thank God the blessed Trinity for the witness of the SSPX. If i had to attend my local Novus Ordo churches i would have to put up with; 1/ congregation chatting through Mass and looking bored (because they are) 2/ heretical or near heretical sermons 3/ people wearing shorts and t-shirts despite the fact we are in the presence of the Sacrifice of the Cross and Our Lord’s Body and Blood 4/ mushy sentimental hymns which degrade the Sacrifice of the Mass 4/ Eucharistic ministers 5/ communion in the hand…these things matter because we are spirit and body not just spirit…to worship in spirit means the externals are crucial.