Jesus Christ reading the OT in the Synagogue
I know that I said that I would not be posting more on the Rashid vs. White debate on who resembles Jesus more, Christians or Muslims. I’ve changed my mind so here is a final rejoinder to Rashid on the debate.
Rashid brought up some external things that showed that Muslims resemble Jesus Christ. I’m going to give three things that White should have pointed out but didn’t. I should also point out that any of these three things are far more important than something like prostrating while praying. In case Rashid is interested, here’s a picture of Catholic seminarians praying in prostration before their ordination to the priesthood.
Is Adnan Rashid impressed by this? I doubt it.
Anyways, here are three important ways in how Christians resemble Jesus whereas Muslims don’t. The first point is baptism. We know that Jesus Christ was baptized by John the Baptist. In the Scriptures we read:
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.
– Matthew 3:16
At the end of that book, the Lord Jesus Christ tells us to baptize others.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
– Matthew 28:19
Jesus Christ was baptized. Christians are baptized. Perhaps Adnan Rashid can tell us when he was baptized?
Next, the most important prayer in the history of the Church is the Our Father. It’s in every traditional liturgy and is a part of all major devotions. For example, when a Christian prays the rosary, multiple Our Fathers are recited. In the Scripture we read:
“This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
– Matthew 6:9
He then goes on to finish the prayer that we know as the Our Father. Christians have been praying this prayer in the liturgy and in personal prayer for 2,000 years. Christ prayed it and so do we. Maybe Adnan Rashid can tell us how often he or other Muslims use this prayer? Is it a part of Fajr maybe?
I have given two external practices in where Christians resemble Jesus and where Muslims fail. The third example is a point of belief and it is in regards to the authority and authenticity of Old Testament Scripture. Jesus Christ believed in the OT to be authentic Scripture.
In Luke 4, Christ is being tempted by the Devil and He responds to his taunts by quoting the Torah, specifically the book of Deuteronomy. In Luke 4:16-20, Jesus Christ read the book of Isaiah in the synagogue. Christians read Isaiah in Church as it’s part of the traditional lectionary. Muslims don’t read any of these scriptures. They just say they’re corrupted. Jesus didn’t believe that and neither do Christians. Jesus read those texts in His house of worship and so do we. When’s the last time Adnan Rashid heard Isaiah being recited in his mosque?
In these three important ways, Christians follow Jesus Christ. These examples are far more important than praying in prostration. If Adnan Rashid claims Christ to be the messiah, he should get baptized, start saying the Our Father and start believing in the OT as divine Scripture and tell his Imam to read it in the mosque.
Clear and pertinent as ever.
In the light of these points what can we make of Dr Whites performance? Or rather, should I say, his approach towards Muslims.
I wonder what he is trying to achieve.
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
Allan,
Due to the picture you include demonstrates Catholic seminarians praying in prostration. this does not surprise me because I also know the way of the Orthodox Prayer before as Islam Prayers. but the difference is tuma’ninah (pause at every act)
“If you want to do prayer then go ahead, then read al-Quran verses that are easy for you. Then bow down until it is bowed to you, then rise up (from the bow) until you stand upright, and then fall down prostrate to the prostration with the tumakninah, then lift up your head to sit down, sitting upright, then bow down until it is completely prostrate, then do so in all your prayers “(HR Bukhari 757 and Muslim 397 from the companions of Abu Hurairah)
Your first point:
Refers to your first example of baptism .. please Quran 2: 135-141 as a whole where in verses 2: 137-138 more specifically tell about baptism. It should be noted that the coming of the Koran is the purest of the earlier books (Zabur, Torah and the Gospel). There was a lesson learned first but was fixed and there was no longer an Islamic teaching.
(shibghah = baptis) al Quran2: 138 means the divine (fitrah) that Allah has outstripped for man. In Islam, (shibghah = baptism) is obedience to God. (Refer to Ibn Kaatsir). In Islam, there is no need for baptism, but Muslims must be virtuous. We have Islamic pillars:
1. syahadah
2. Pray 5 times
3. Fasting in Ramadan
4. Performing zakat
5. Perform pilgrimage
Although these five things determine a person’s Islam, but it is not a person’s determination their destination after death. I believe that you believe in this verse “there is no survivor, from the command of God, whatever except he is blessed” … only the grace of God, one can live devine… so how can a human being be a savior?
In your second point,
In relation to the liturgy of prayer, we have no such teaching, but in Islam we should zikrullah to Allah, individually or in groups.and also we have baiah (in group) and prayer fajr which I think that’s the right example to match the liturgy prayer in Christianity.
“There is no gathering of a people in a house of God (mosque) to call Allah to seek His favor unless He pardon them. And replace their disadvantages with various kindness (HR Ahmad … At Targhieb 3:63)
“Two rak’ah prayers of the sunnah fajr are better than the world and all its contents.” (HR Muslim725).
The last point “belief and it is in regards to the authority and authenticity of Old Testament Scripture”. all Muslims believe in the books of the book, namely, zabur, the law, the gospel and the Qur’an. In non-Muslims, the law is the OT … but in us Muslims, the OT is a transcendent Torah.
For example, the story in the text contains the story of Noah (Genesis 6:11 – 8:21) which is also found in the Qur’an (11: 25-48) and the Qur’an (7: 59-64)
That’s all for now..
Insan…
Hi Insan,
Let me respond to a couple things.
“In Islam, there is no need for baptism, but Muslims must be virtuous.”
Well, then my point stands. This is one way that Christians are like Jesus and Muslims aren’t. This was the topic of the debate.
“In relation to the liturgy of prayer, we have no such teaching, ”
Well, this teaching comes from Jesus who is a Muslim prophet. That is why Christians use this prayer after 2,000 years and another way in we’re more like Jesus.
Regarding the OT, maybe you could elaborate your point more?
God bless,
Allan
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
Allan,
Due to answer the question, I hope I will get the answer of these question first..
Being a question to me, Why do Christians do not practice self-purification before praying? Is it not in the Bible to be mentioned about purification before praying, see Exodus 30: 17-20 and Exodus 40: 30-32
I also wonder why Christians do not practice the example standing (Mark 11:25), prostrating (Psalm 99: 5) kneeling (Psalm 95: 6; Acts 20:36), raising hands (Isaiah 1:15) 9: 4 instead of the bell sound, fast for 40 days, as did Jesus? (Matthew 4: 2) and my last question is….
Why is Christianity divided into many churches, each one worshiping God in his own way?
Thats all for now,
Regards,
Insan
Hi Insan,
Regarding the ritual washing, these commandments are only for OT priests at the Altar. The old sacrificial system is gone. However, something interesting that you might want to know, in Hebrews 13:10 it talks about an altar. This is for the holy sacrifice of the Mass, also known as the Lord’s supper, or the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. After the Creed, when the priest begins the prayers you’ll notice that the altar server has pre-consecrated wine and water. The alter server pours the water onto his hands so he can clean them before he does the consecration.
“I also wonder why Christians do not practice the example standing (Mark 11:25), prostrating (Psalm 99: 5) kneeling (Psalm 95: 6; Acts 20:36), raising hands (Isaiah 1:15) 9: 4 instead of the bell sound, fast for 40 days, as did Jesus? (Matthew 4: 2) and my last question is….”
I recommend that you attend a Catholic mass. You will see praying while standing, kneeling, genuflecting. Prostration is rare but it does happen, particularly if you go to an Eastern Rite Church. We fast for 40 days during lent.
Now, this last question is a biggie but I’ll be brief. If you go back to 1,500 there were only four churches. Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrian Church. Four churches. The splits between these churches came because of politics and minor theological differences. Early in the 16th century the reformation birthed sola scriptura and smashed the doctrinal Unity of the Catholic regions. Every reformer became his own Pope. The Catholic Church is partially to blame because of corruption at the time. There are entire volumes written on this issue. As a Catholic, I would recommmend looking into the Catholic faith. I would recommend reading The Crisis of Civilization by Hilaire Belloc.
God bless,
Allan
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
Allan,
I was destined to go to church in December 2018 in City of London. Actually that is not the first time. Feeling excited for coming in with the willingness of the heart. Try hearing and learning what is being said in the church. However, it did not change my faith and believe to Allah. Thank you Allah..
God made all beings in diversity. every occurrence there is a hidden grace. At the origin of the god created humans for the purpose of administering the universe with faith to obey the creator. He is on this diversity that there is a difference by place, generation and race.
As with your previous answer, most Christians do not follow all of what was given in the previous book (the law / zabur / old testament) as only for some people who follow it. On Muslims, Zabur, the Law and the Gospel are the books of his day. Jesus / Isa is for his own time. Muhammad was revealed for the whole of nature until the day of death and the day of resurrection. There is something Jesus / Isa practiced but no longer practiced by Muslims. despite the different methods of implementation, but faith is the same.
Al-Kaafiruun 109: 1-6
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.
May God choose us to recognize the TRUE truth
regards,
Insan