The book that I really want to read
A few days ago it was the feast of St. Margaret Clitherow. Clitherow was an English Catholic put to death in the late 16th century for her faith in Catholicism and opposition to Anglicanism. A young English traditional Catholic that I follow on Twitter was posting quotes from a book about St. Margaret Clitherow. I asked her what book it was, and she told me that it was Saint Margaret Clitherow by Katharine Longley. I’ve since ordered the book because the excerpts that she’s been sharing are really inspiring.
On the weekend I went over to a friend’s house and we watched the first episode of the show Gunpowder. It takes place in 1603. It starts off with a Jesuit celebrating mass in secret for closet Catholics in a house. Anglican soldiers come in, search the house and arrest one lady and a priest that they found hiding. Both of them are tortured and killed for adhering to the faith that had guided the English people for almost a thousand years. It had also been the faith of the entirety of England less than a century prior.
Catholics back then sure had courage. It was more dangerous for a Jesuit to minister in England than it was for him to minister in the Islamic Ottoman Empire. However, there were still secret Catholic communities in England that needed the sacraments administered and the faith preached.
Reading about St. Margaret Clitherow, St. Edmund Campion, and the 7th Earl of Northumberland gives me hope. These are the people to whom we should look for guidance. The pseudo-intellectuals who drew up that pathetic and heretical working document for the Amazon synod need to look to these English martyrs. People in Western Europe once died for the apostolic faith. It’s depressing looking at Catholics now and comparing them to Catholics back then.
While the decline of Catholicism is unfortunate, the decline of Anglicanism bothers me as well. Don’t get me wrong, I would never recommend the Church of England to anyone. In addition to that, I would encourage its members to become Catholic. When there was a strong Protestantism, it forced the Catholic Church to be that much better. Iron sharpens iron.
Catholics and Protestants have had to deal with each other for 500 years. When strong Catholicism met strong Protestantism, Catholicism won every time. The only exception was when there was a local King or Prince who aided the Protestants. A good example was how St. Francis de Sales was able to win back the Chablais region in France back to the Catholic faith.
Also, with the decline of Anglicanism and other forms of Protestantism, it gives more liberally minded clerics the impression that things should change in the Church. When Protestants are strong, Catholics are strong as well. That is why it saddens me to see the mainline churches completely collapsing. My entire paternal family is German Lutheran. Both of my paternal grandparents died as practicing Lutherans. They would have been horrified to see what has happened to their church in the last couple decades.
Gunpowder is a really good show. I’m sure that book on St. Margaret Clitherow is good as well. I’ll be reading it soon. It shows a brand of Catholicism that needs to be brought back. The same kind of faith that guided the Church for centuries.
The problem with the quote you use starting “on the weekend I went over to a friends house ” says that for the 1000 years proceeding 1602 The Roman Catholic church had been “guiding” the faith of England and 100 years before was the faith of the entirety. That is what our well known politician and cabinet minister ( who went to prison by the way and found Christ there ) Jonathan Aitken would have called being “economical with the truth “.
Sure the Roman Cathlolic political institution ( and pretty corrupt it was ) was the leading institution the only religious game in town but for the millions of ordinary folk that was all they were an institution and a pretty bloated one at that. The millions of ordinary people were completely unaware of the Gospel reading bibles was punishable by the most severe sanctions and bibles were written in a language that most Brits did not understand. So saying that the whole of Britain was Roman Catholic was false most people had no idea who Christ was nor what had He done for them. Sure they were aware of the institution of the RC church and how well fed and well dressed and well housed the clergy were but to say that is a saving faith I am afraid is very much not true because the average lot of most people during those years was terrible and they simply could not identify with the clergy. Why do you think people like William Tyndale who translated the bible into English were so terribly persecuted and murdered by the Roman Catholics ?
Hi Richard,
“The millions of ordinary people were completely unaware of the Gospel reading bibles was punishable by the most severe sanctions and bibles were written in a language that most Brits did not understand.”
Most people didn’t know about the Gospel? Can you prove that? Please cite some primary sources. Also, there were copies of the Bibles in English before Wycliffe. His version was banned because he never got sanction from the bishop. But there were English translations going back to Venerable Bede.
“So saying that the whole of Britain was Roman Catholic was false most people had no idea who Christ was nor what had He done for them.”
Again, I ask for proof. For the last 450 years English history has been written by Protestants so I understand why this sentiment is floating around. I would simply like some proof for this.
“Sure they were aware of the institution of the RC church and how well fed and well dressed and well housed the clergy were but to say that is a saving faith I am afraid is very much not true because the average lot of most people during those years was terrible and they simply could not identify with the clergy.”
Not true. The clergy were respected in England. It wasn’t like Germany with the selling of indulgences, bishops trying to control multiple dioceses, fake relics, etc. The English went down kicking and screaming for their Catholic faith. Google “Pilgrimage of Grace” and “Rising of the North” to see how the common folk reacted when the Tudor monarchs suppressed the Catholic faith.
I recommend that you read this book written by an Anglican around 1820:
https://www.amazon.com/History-Protestant-Reformation-England-Ireland/dp/0895553538
Also, Tyndale was executed for preaching heresy, not for translating the Bible into English.
God bless,
Allan
Most people were simply trying to stay alive in the most horrendous conditions we were mostly a rural economy life expectancy was very low infant mortality almost epidemic there was rudimentary belief and hope in God and of course superstition was very much a way of life. Churches for the most part were for the rich landed gentry and church pews were owned by the local rich and the poor huddled outside the churches to get try and catch the odd word of the sermon. Most and I mean most, people did not read or write . Where did this universal belief in the Gospel you talk about come from. Were there thousands of missionaries cris crossing the land preaching the Gospel on every street corner? If you say that i ask you as you ask me where is the proof of that. Sadly the average peasant, and we were peasants, cast a leary eye at the clergy who they put in the same category as the government and the crown . They bore no real relevance to the average person living their life and that was exactly the same when the church of England was set up it was just the Roman Catholic church mark 2 for most average Joe. I would say that is pretty much the same view that the man in street here has now. By the way apparently 98% of the population is now un churched here .
“Most people were simply trying to stay alive in the most horrendous conditions we were mostly a rural economy life expectancy was very low infant mortality almost epidemic there was rudimentary belief and hope in God and of course superstition was very much a way of life. Churches for the most part were for the rich landed gentry and church pews were owned by the local rich and the poor huddled outside the churches to get try and catch the odd word of the sermon.”
I’m sorry that you don’t like the faith that governed the British Isles for over 900 years but you’re going to have to back this up. I have heard of rich people owning the good seats in church but the only account of this I’ve read is about Protestant churches in Ireland, not Catholic churches in England. I’m not saying this could have happened but in Catholic England but I’d like to see proof.
“Where did this universal belief in the Gospel you talk about come from. Were there thousands of missionaries cris crossing the land preaching the Gospel on every street corner?”
There were parish churches all over England and the clergy in them preached the gospel. Have you been to a Catholic church? Every mass has Bible readings and a sermon before the blessed sacrament.
” If you say that i ask you as you ask me where is the proof of that. Sadly the average peasant, and we were peasants, cast a leary eye at the clergy who they put in the same category as the government and the crown .”
The peasants in England were much better off when England was Catholic. The peasants would often lease land from the local monasteries and it was cheap. When Henry VIII and Cromwell looted all the monasteries, they gave that land to their cronies who were much harder on the peasants. Those monasteries also served as extremely cheap hotels for people passing by and gave shelter and food to the homeless. When they were looted the homeless population couldn’t get food, crime went through the roof, and then Henry VIII had to crack down and turn the country into a police state. The Church was only in the same category as the monarch when the monarch was actually the leader of the church. That didn’t happen under Catholic England.
” They bore no real relevance to the average person living their life and that was exactly the same when the church of England was set up it was just the Roman Catholic church mark 2 for most average Joe. I would say that is pretty much the same view that the man in street here has now.”
If the church of England was just Catholicism 2.0, why did so many martyrs die for the Catholic faith. Why was there a Pilgrimage of Grace and a Rising of the North? Your theory doesn’t fit the facts.
“By the way apparently 98% of the population is now un churched here .”
Pretty sad, isn’t it?
God bless,
Allan
Yup it is sad and i suspect the figures are about the same in your country. What you say is interesting but I know England pretty well my one of my favorite books is Betjamins EnglishParish churches and where ever i travel i try and pop into any thing that looks interesting. Yes we had churches scattered around but we were an agrarian society and most folk simply did not have access to churches or the Gospel .
I am a Christian and I am proud of our Christian heritage and of course understand that the RC church has influenced the faith here in this country. We are no longer a Christian country though we stopped being so about 100 years ago after the end of the 1st word war. I suppose you could say that was because the church of England took over the state faith and that if the RC church had not been diluted then England would still be a Christian country but I just dont think that is true.
” I am proud of our Christian heritage”
Well, you don’t like the Catholic church and you said the Church of England is simply mark 2 Catholicism. About 98% of English people in the last 1500 years have been in one of these two churches. Since you’re not a fan of either of these churches I find it odd that you’re saying that you’re proud of England’s Christian heritage.
I am English and I love my heritage I think we have a unique history. I say that as a believer in Christ and His atoning sacrifice for me and everyone who accepts Him.
If you ask the average bod on the street here in the uk these days whether they are RC or C of E most will say it was completely irrelevant to them and played no real part in their life. They will be completely unaware of the saving power of the Gospel. I dont think anything has changed here for the last 1500 years
So you think people in England are as indifferent to Christ in 2019 as they were in 1819 or even 1219?
I think the same proportionate number of people now have no clue who Christ is as those dates you mention , yes.
People may have said they were RC in 1300 because they were the only game in town that they knew who Christ was or what he taught I have no doubt that they had no clue. They knew nothing about salvation other than what was transferred by word of mouth and superstition. I was brought up as a nominal c of e. My wife from the far east was brought up as a RC. I was not a Christian until I came to Christ again at the age of 53 , 12 years ago. I have been with my wife for over 30 years. She NEVER once read the bible in the years up to my conversion. I started reading the bible a lot 12 years ago and still do and encouraged my wife to do the same. She learned about salvation and who Christ really was. It has transformed her faith and she still identifies as RC. She is very much the norm in the RC church here in the UK and that is after 500 years of English translations of the bible being available in RC churches. Imagine what the rate would have been before the English bibles.
Question. When you say:
“People may have said they were RC in 1300 because they were the only game in town that they knew who Christ was or what he taught I have no doubt that they had no clue. They knew nothing about salvation other than what was transferred by word of mouth and superstition.”
Have you actually researched this or were you just taught this from a young age and you’ve always assumed its true and had no reason to question it?
“She NEVER once read the bible in the years up to my conversion. ”
Okay, this is common. I never read the Bible until I was 18 and it was a high school graduation gift from my Protestant cousin so your wife and I are in the same boat. I will repeat, personal Bible reading isn’t a requirement for salvation. For most of the 2,000 years history of the Church, one couldn’t go to the local Chapters(or whatever the big chain of bookstores is in England) and pick up a printed hardcover 66(or 73) book Bible and start reading. That’s only a modern thing.
Christianity existed over 1400 years without this technology. Bibles had to be handwritten and most people couldn’t afford one and a lot of people couldn’t read either way. Bibles were only in Churches, monasteries, and universities. People would go to church to hear the scriptures and to hear an educated man(the priest) preach on those verses.
Let me give you two examples. St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Joan of Arc are two holy Saints of the Catholic Church. St. Thomas was a scholar extraordinaire. He knew the Bible inside and out, had studied it thoroughly, not to mention Bible commentaries, patristics, philosophy etc.
St. Joan of Arc was from a peasant family in rural France. She never did any of the studying that St. Thomas did(she was probably illiterate) but she was able to attain a high amount of personal holiness like him. The only education about Christianity she had was from her local church via the liturgy. That’s how it was for most people.
Reading the Bible doesn’t get a person to heaven.
I dont think i have ever stated that reading the bible gets you to heaven. What it does do is tell you whom Jesus Christ is and also I beleive the bible when it says in 2 Timothy 3 v 16 and 17 that all scripture is profitable for teaching etc. so reading the bible for ourselves has got to be good for us.
I would like to point out i am not anti RCI like things like Church militant tv and often go into the RC Abbey next to me here in London that is a RC monastery ( where sadly the last Abbott has just been sent to prison for 18 years for child abuse after being on the run for years after jumping bail , he had to be extradited from Albania ) and listen to the monks chanting and I like to pray there and read my bible.
Oh okay. I don’t think I accused you of saying that but if I did I apologize. We both agree that its not required but beneficial if we do.
That’s awesome that you often visit the local Abbey. I wish I had one by my house.
Yes we are blessed and I see the power of Holy Spirit at work in the people there both laity and clergy.
All the best its bed time here
God bless good night
Morning Allan
No i was not taught anything in my c of e church growing up. I have read quite a lot about Christianity in England and it is from my own reading that I have formed the view that because the Roman Catholic church as an institution was the only game in town in the middle and late middle ages here in the UK and because that institution was wealthy and powerful and quite scary, it is no wonder that people would have said they were RC if asked but that would have had nothing to do with faith in Christ and salvation through His atoning sacrifice because they knew nothing about it.
In middle age England churches were few and far between and monasteries were the main thing for the RC church and they did amazing things and i think the middle ages were a golden age of the RC church. However to think that the mass of the population flocked to these places every sunday to hear the Gospel taught them in their mother tongue cannot be true because of the lack of churches that were small and few in number and that most people did not have access to a monastery.
If the RC church survives the current existential crisis it is going through perhaps a return to the monastic tradition of the middle ages might not be a bad route and leave all the glitz and politics and corruption behind
Morning Richard,
Again, I’d like to see the proof that there was no(or little) true faith in England in Catholic times. A lot of people believe this but a lot of people believe other things about history that aren’t true.
I also find it hard to believe that there weren’t a lot of churches. Can you back that up?
Sorry if I’m insistent on you providing sources but I like to do my research.
God bless,
Allan
Hello again Alan what was the heresy that Tyndale was accused of ? I ask this as a genuine question because my hobby is restoring old bibles so have an interest in him, not that i have won the lottery and am able to own anything by him.
He was preaching Protestant doctrine. I would recommend picking up a biography of Tyndale. There are no shortage of them.
Hello Alan I have just read up on Tyndale in Catholic Answers so understand where you are coming from on the heresy thing. That aside I did note that in Catholic answers it said that part of the reason that not another English translation of the bible was required at the time was because that they had toruble getting rid of the ones they already had presumably because no one was reading them. So if the RC church had been in charge of promoting the Gospels for the proceeding 1000 years they obviously had not done a very good job of it because no one was interested in them.
How do you know that no one was reading them? Besides, they heard the Bible every Sunday in Church? You don’t have to do private Bible reading to be a Christian, though it does have tremendous benefits. God doesn’t send people to hell because they can’t read. That’s why the liturgy is full of Bible verses, prayers based on Biblical verses and Bible readings.
I think you will be staggered how many people did not attend the churches when the RC church was pre eminent here as they also did not attend nor could they attend when the C of E started. I will try and look into those figures for you some time.