https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJS47-LE7vk
David Wood has been busy on his YouTube channel recently. He’s currently putting out a 30 day series over Ramadan called Islamicize Me, which is a parody of the documentary Supersize Me. However, instead of eating fast food for 30 days straight they’re following the commands of Muhammad for 30 days, including the weird hadith commands that most Muslims don’t know about or ignore. However, I’m more interested in the serious work that he’s been putting out like the video above. It’s a video of David Wood, Sam Shamoun, and Al Fadi going over Islamic arguments.
In this video, at 3:50 Sam Shamoun mentions that the whole argument regarding the Quran being a scientific miracle has been largely abandoned by Muslims. I know that I can’t prove this but I recently made this observation myself. I was even thinking of writing a post on it. Again, I can’t prove that I’ve been thinking this but I can honestly tell you that I made that observation.
Regardless, I will make another prediction. This time my prediction will be online so everyone can see it and you don’t simply have to take my word for it. I’m going to predict the next Islamic argument to be retired.
The next argument that the Muslims will retire is that Muhammad is predicted in Song of Solomon 5:16. There, I said it; it’s online for everyone to see. I haven’t seen a debate recently about Muhammad being predicted in the Bible so its hard to tell what the current mood is on this one.
I personally think that most Muslims don’t believe this, but it’s only touted by the apologists. In my opinion this is the opposite of the supposed scientific miracles of the Quran. The Muslim laity probably hasn’t abandoned it. After all, you can still get Maurice Bucaille’s book online. It’s the apologists who have come clean on it.
I think that the Song of Solomon argument will be abandoned for a couple reasons. Besides the fact that it’s a phonetic parallel of a language that probably didn’t exist at the time, and the fact that the word in question is actually spelled differently than Muhammad’s name, and the fact that it’s been completely divorced from it’s original context, the truth is that the Muslims don’t need it. They’re only required to find Muhammad in the Torah and the Gospel. In this case Deuteronomy 18 and the Paraclete of the Gospel of John are the answer. Song of Solomon is neither in the Torah or the Gospel. It may be an extra prophecy but I think that Muslims will soon give it an honorary retirement similar to the scientific miracle argument.
That’s only my prediction but I’ve been studying Islamic apologetics for a long time. If anyone is interested in making another prediction on what Islamic arguments will be dropped next, feel free to list them below. I actually have an idea on a couple others that might be dropped but this is only my prediction for the next one. Again, feel free to share below.
This is a bit incidental to your point but I’m really unhappy with the Islamicize Me series of videos. I am a great admirer of David Wood but this is a very bad move for him and his reputation in my view. Mr Wood has the makings of a first class Christian Apologist, I might even rate him as such already. Unfortunately there is a big blank spot where David Wood’s conscience and self-check should be, which is part of the unfortunate condition he suffers from. It pains me to point these things out because I really admire this guy for his intellect, his devotion to Christ and his humour.
However his reputation will not be served by such silly and insulting videos. Furthermore Mr Wood appearing in violent and aggressive roles in these YouTube episodes and it is not a good look for him, particularly given his past actions, his history of mental health and his obvious physical prowess and aggression.
As for Sam Shamoun, I hope he makes good after few blunders that have come about through passion. I hope he overcomes the immoderate outbursts that have spoiled his reputation…I really do….he has a great deal to offer.
I rather like Al Fadi.
I understand the problem though. The problem is that when confronted by the wilfull stupidity that even intelligent people exhibit when they are in the thrall of Mohammedanism it is very difficult not to respond in a fairly extreme way, and to get carried away in one’s opposition to a false, deceitful “religion”. I struggle with this myself but then I am not in the public eye and thus not open to the critical view of people who do not understand Islam and so can only see people displaying such contempt as merely extreme Islam-haters.
As for predictions of what Islamist apologists may use in future, the answer is “absolutely anything”. If one tool doesn’t work they will throw it away and use another. They are lost. All we can hope to do is to mitigate the effect their apologistthey may have on others by countering their arguments.
The best thing is to stick to the view that the Koran has on Jesus Christ and point out the great lie. Keep it simple.
It’s all right for me to talk though. I’m not in the front line. The nearest I got was arguing with a Dawah-merchant in Huddersfield town centre, who wasn’t really listening to my brilliant arguments anyway! (At least I got a free Koran out of it.)
Hi Christopher;
As I mentioned, I’m far more interested in these kind of videos. I think David Wood should concentrate on this area. It’s a very well done video apart from the sound problems at the beginning.
I disagree that Muslims are lost. Some are for sure but some aren’t. I honestly believe that a lot of them can be reached, especially those living in the West. Muslims misunderstand a lot about Christianity. Few of them have ever read one book of the Bible. Far more have read Ehrman than the Bible. The number one thing that I find is that they must be treated with respect.
I recently watched the conversion story of Joshua Evans. It made me so sad because he never had someone to answer his questions. If he was around even 2nd tier apologists like Catholic Answers, he would have had his questions answered. They weren’t easy questions but they weren’t super hard either. They’re questions that any thinking person should have when they read the Bible, especially as a teenager.
“If one tool doesn’t work they will throw it away and use another.”
Yes, that is what happened with the “science in the Quran” argument. If this argument can go, others will as well.
God Bless,
Allan
I shall have to look up the case of Joshua Evans.
Apologies for the errors in my post. Try as I might, I cannot seem to avoid these typing errors, and my proof-reading is no proof against them. I think most people will get the gist of it though.
I would moderate my post though, I agree with you that they are not all lost. It was not my intention to state that they all were. I think Islamic apologists may well be though. Knowledgeable and educated ones will have a lot to answer for. It gives me no pleasure to say so.
Hi Christopher,
Here is the video. Regarding Islamic apologetics, I’ve been thinking of writing a post on the state of Islamic apologetics. A really good metaphor comes to mind. I don’t know if I want to publish it though.
I also believe that it’s a shame that Catholics haven’t been challenging Islam because we can use arguments that Evangelicals can’t use, including effective ones.
God Bless,
Allan
I don’t agree that the “Quran is miraculous” argument is “largely abandoned” by Muslim apologists and dawamongers. For example, Shabir Ally and Zakir Naik (hailed by Muslims as Islam’s champions in apologetics) still use it their presentations, lectures and debates. Ehteshaam Gulam recently made a video, in which he argues (in his usual sloppy and mangled manner) that Quran’s “miraculousness” is a proof it was revealed by God. It’s true that some of them seem to have realized that it is outdated and inconvincing, but I’m pretty sure that if you ask a Muslim “How do you know the Quran is from God”, the majority will come up with something like “Miracle this, miracle that, numerical improbabilities that are contained in the Quran, etc., etc.” I’ve always been amazed of Muslims’ inability to realize how bad this argument truly is. First, even if the Quran is proven to be a miracle, that doesn’t mean it is of a divine origin. It simply means it is miraculous, which is not good enough to be a verification of divine origin. In fact, for Christians it pretty much rings some bells (Matthew 24:24, anyone?). Second, why do Muslims appeal to science only when it fits their agenda? What about Islamic beliefs that are scientifically unacceptable? Science is to be observable, repeatable and testable. How exactly Muhammad flying on a winged horse with a human face (Buraq) is supposed to be “scientifically accurate”? It is an improbable event that cannot be observed and/or tested. In this case science goes under the bus. Because the Quran cannot be errant, right? Third, when someone points certain passages in the Quran that contain scientific inaccuracies, the Muslim response is “This is not what the passage really means, it is to be understood in a different way.” Well, I can say the same thing about the “scientific” passages. Why should I believe they say what Muslims insist they say? We have no the slightest idea how the earliest Muslims understood these texts, so we don’t really know their original meaning.
Nonetheless, the argument that I find to be the most amusing and incredible (meaning “not credible”) is that the Quran is composed with supernatural eloquence. As David Wood pointed out, the very phrase “supernatural eloquence” makes no sense. The argument goes like this: “No one can put the words in the Quran in such a magnificent order, forming such splendid sentences, therefore the Quran is revealed by God”. This is complete bogus. Human beings can put whatever words you can think of into whatever order you can think of. I can say that “The Raven” is supernaturally eloquent and that nobody can create something matching its verbal splendor. Besides, “The Raven” sounds powerfully not only in English, but in German and Russian as well. And what about the Bible? The Sermon of the Mount is beautiful and moving in any language, and so are the Psalms, for example. The Quran sounds boring and incoherent if it is not in Arabic. Are all human beings supposed to learn Arabic in order to appreciate the Quran in its fullness?
Lastly, about the proFAKEcies about Muhammad in Bible- every time a Muslim brings up this hogwash, I simply ask “Well, you believe that the Bible is a distorted version of the “original” Torah and Gospel. Prove that the passages you refer to are genuine! Show me copies of the undistorted revelations, so I could know for sure that you’re not making this stuff up”. This is where their argument is over. They just can’t get over this. I don’t need to go to the context of the passage or to check the linguistic intricacies in order to explain why Muhammad is not in the Bible (at least not in the passages, utilized by Muslims).
May God help us all.
I agree with James White, “Islamicize Me” is not a good way to proclaim the Gospel to Muslims. It is humorous, but it is not the kind of stuff Christians should be engaged in.
Hi Orangehunter,
Has Shabir Ally used this lately? He seems to be promoting the Quran codes more and more. I saw the video by Ehteshaam Gulam but notice that he didn’t use the traditional embryology argument, he used the ship argument which is a bit more esoteric. I don’t think it has the dynamic it once had but I think it’s far less used.
“Lastly, about the proFAKEcies about Muhammad in Bible- every time a Muslim brings up this hogwash, I simply ask “Well, you believe that the Bible is a distorted version of the “original” Torah and Gospel. Prove that the passages you refer to are genuine!”
I agree. I honestly don’t care if a Muslim says the Bible is corrupted. I care if he says it’s been corrupted then he tries to use it to prove Islam or prophecies of Muhammad. I recently saw a clip of Zakir Hussain in a debate saying that the Gospel of John was unreliable. Of course, when Hussain needs a prophecy of Muhammad he jumps to the Paraclete sayings in John. All of a sudden John has become super reliable! Except of course where it says the Paraclete is the Holy Ghost. Bankrupt apologetics in my opinion.
God Bless,
Allan
I am not saying the argument of Quran being a miracle is not evolving, I am saying it will never wane to any significant degree, because it is at the core of Muslims’ belief that this book was revealed by Allah. Yes, some dawagandists started to see its ineffectiveness (barely anyone outside of Islam even cares if the Quran contains miracles or not, because, as I said, miracles cannot be used as a proof in this case), but the majority still holds fervently to it and will continue to do so, because the just don’t have anything better.
And how long before Shabir Ally and likeminded abandon the RIDICULOUS ‘amazing number coincidences in the Quran’ argument?
IMHO all it does it open up an opportunity to ask “Which Quran?” and all the related textual issues… The six earliest surviving manuscripts, the missing verses according to the Hadith, the differences in modern printed Arabic Quran, the methodology used to determine the particular 1924 Cairo edition – which Jay Smith claims Mr Ally has stated to be the basis of his amazing numerological argument, he doesn’t care about any other Qurans!
Orangehunter said: “First, even if the Quran is proven to be a miracle, that doesn’t mean it is of a divine origin. It simply means it is miraculous, which is not good enough to be a verification of divine origin.”
This reminds me of several flaws with the ‘Number miracle’ argument along those lines, even if the numbers DO line up…
1) It doesn’t prove that a committee of human editors scrupulously working for decades didn’t or couldn’t do it;
2) Even if 1) were cast aside, it doesn’t prove that some higher intelligence didn’t or couldn’t do it (e.g. the same malevolent genius I credit with Intelligently Designing cruel features in nature);
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOwrjrwUFoI&t=1s (Christian Prince – Debate Challenge To Shabir Ally)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fVppiM5HUk&t=1s (Sam Shamoun Challenges Shabir Ally to Debate)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1WO0uVeIY0&feature=youtu.be&t=2734 (Bro Imran runs from debating Christian Prince)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R4YI8ypRb8&t=1849s (Refuting Dr. Zakir Naik – Holy Bible in the light of Science)
Science in the Quran” argument has never been abandoned. I wonder where did you get that idea from? Just because you don’t hear of it being used doesn’t mean that it has been “dropped”. Anyone can still search for it on Google.
menj is that you???
Small online world!