Bede the Venerable
I’ve been having quite good conversations online with English Catholics recently, both convert and cradle. I know that English Catholics are required to do the fast every Friday of the year with no exceptions. In Canada we’re allowed to substitute a penance while in America you only have to fast on Fridays during lent. A priest told me that England is pretty unique in this regard as not many countries actually require the strict fast anymore.
This weekend I’m reading a book that I should have read a long time ago, and that is Ecclesiastical History of the English People by Bede the Venerable who is both a saint and Doctor of the Church. I’m impressed with this work. Pope Gregory the Great sure did a good job bringing the gospel to that country. One can tell by reading that account that Bede had a large amount of respect for Gregory and the later Popes that organized the evangelism of England. It’s a shame that the delegates at the recent Amazon Synod didn’t look to this brilliant work.
In a biography of English Catholic martyr St. Margaret Clitherow, we read about Thomas Percy, the Catholic Earl of Northumberland and how he was brought before some pseudo-inquisitor. We read:
To Palmer, the minister who interrupted him here, saying, ‘You are dying an obstinate Papist; a member, not of the Catholic, but of the Roman Church,’ the Earl replied, ‘That which you call the Roman Church is the Catholic Church, which has been founded on the teaching of the Apostles, Jesus Christ himself being its corner-stone, strengthened by the blood of Martyrs, honoured by the recognition of the holy Fathers; and it continues always the same, being the Church against which, as Christ our Saviour said, the gates of Hell shall not prevail.’ He declared that ‘if he had a thousand lives he would give them up for the Catholic faith.’
– Saint Margaret Clitherow, p. 46
This was the bait and switch that the English Protestants were doing. They were saying that the Church of England was the true Catholic Church and the Roman Church was an impostor anti-Christian Church. Of course anyone who reads the accounts of Bede knows that this isn’t true. England was evangelized by the Roman Pope and the early church in England was full of relic veneration, building shrines for martyrs, monasticism and other things that were abolished by the Tudor family.
The sand that the Church of England was built on was exposed during the Oxford movement. One of the most important figures of the Oxford movement John Henry Newman who was canonized less than a month ago. I haven’t looked up the quote yet by my priest recently told me that St. John Vianney said that England would become Catholic again. The Church of England is certainly dying and will be dead very soon. The big question is, who will be the successor? Islam and Evangelicalism are in contention as well. However, secularism seems like the best candidate. Regardless, I’m praying for them to return to the faith that the Tudor family stole from them. I’m also praying for more Popes like Gregory the Great so that our Lord Jesus Christ can be proclaimed boldly.
“I know that English Catholics are required to do the fast every Friday of the year with no exceptions.”
Eh? What? Oh heck! Seriously, I don’t know anyone who does this. They may do, but I am not aware of this.
Glad you mention Bede’s History, I read him when I was very young. I did it as someone interested in the history of the English peoples, particularly in the neglected period of the Dark Ages, where moderns have a tendency to deny that their ancestors were indeed English, and instead insist on calling them Anglo-Saxons regarding them as remote, irrelevant blonds with unlovely names just biding time until the Normans conquered. So being interested in the history of the people I was at first a little impatient with the Church history but as I read more the subject became more and more interesting. I was particularly impressed with St Gregory the Great (so much that I named one of my sons after him) and his mission to the English. It is interesting to read how he encouraged St Augustine and his monks and tried to get them to overcome their fear of meeting with the English barbarians. I also enjoyed reading about St Paulinus and his mission in the North where he converted King Edwin of Northumbria.
I must read it again.
As for the Catholic faith in England, I can only hope and pray that the Church grows, and not through the immigration of Catholics (as at present) but by encouraging British people.
Hi Christopher,
I’ve been talking to a lot of English Catholics on social media. In Canada the only thing keeping Catholic churches open is third world immigration. Most churches are full of Latinos, Africans, and Filipinos. The only European people in our churches are the Poles. Italian, Irish, and French people aren’t in Church anymore.
I’ve seen stats that England is 10% Catholic, though this may be as you suggested, through immigration.
God bless,
Allan
Most Catholics in England and Wales are indigenous to these islands. Having said that, most parishioners are old. Congregations have been swelled by recent immigration from Poland and the Fillipines but they tend to be younger people. There are relatively few children attending Mass and a large proportion seem to be Poles or Fillipinoes. In twenty years as people die I would expect most churches to close; the numbers of masses are already being reduced due to falling numbers. In some cases though I think people are unimpressed by the quality of priests and the way Mass is said so they stay away. Foreign priests are generally of no use to us, they need to be people that we can get on with properly and who have a proper understanding of the people they serve. People are dissatisfied and simply cease attending, others carry on from a sense of duty. I have been very close to stopping altogether because the priest (an Indian) was so poor, but with a young family I had to encourage them in the faith so so I had to make special journeys to find a Mass that I was comfortable with. He was eventually replaced by another Indian (not much better), and I still have to make trips to find something satisfactory.
What Catholics are not able to do is to go out and evangelise. I am convinced that a better clergy would really help. Some of the married deacons would make good priests – they already do sterling work in prisons and the like. They don’t have to be intellectuals, just devout people who care about their communities and understand them.
Christopher
I think it says a lot about the religiosity of a country in how many native vocations that they have. If you read my last post I talk about how the majority of our priests are foreign. Either way, God bless countries like Poland and the Philippines for their firm commitment to the faith.
Ah. Thank you for reminding me that I ought to have referred to the Philippines and their people using the proper spelling. I was so determined not to use “Philippians” that I made a worse error.
Hello Allan, apologies and whilst I think it must offend I really do not want to be offensive. As you know i live next door to the most important RC monastery here in London where there has been a long succession of priests sent to jail for pedophilia. Indeed the last abbott has just been sent to prison for 18 years after jumping bail for about 6 years and going on the run and according to many being hidden by the church in Italy until he was moved to Albania where he was eventually found and extradited and then convicted. I strongly believe in Christs atoning sacrifice for the sins of all mankind and in salvation but i just do not hold any belief in bloated organisations who claim to have a direct line to God and who abuse that notion to the nth degree. I see lovely people day in day out dragging themselves into the Abbey in the forlorn hope that the institution will offer them some sort of eternal safety. It is so sad to see. There is nothing there of any substance. At least the pope is making this year about the Word and maybe people will come to realize that there is only salvation for the gentiles as it states in Pauls letter to the 1 Corithians ch 15 v 1-4. the Gospel of the mystery revealed to Paul by Christ Himself from heaven. That is where salvation lies not in the rituals of any organisation. God bless you too
You’ve told me about the monastery thing like six times. I have a feeling that you’ll bring it up the next time an English Catholic post gets written.
Unforntunatly the “Conversion” of the Anglo-Saxons resulting in persecution of the Celtic Briton Church that already existed.
Do enlighten me about that please.
You mean you haven’t already heard of the Bangor Massacre?
Never heard of it. Just looked it up today. The tale is dubious and appears to come from a Welsh Clergyman of the 17th Century who was both a nationalist and hostile towards Rome. Perhaps any such tale (if indeed the man did not make it up) originated in some local raid, or perhaps the aftermath of the Battle of Chester in 616 where the pagan king Athelfrith of Northumbria slaughtered the priests that had been praying on the side of his British/Welsh opponents, they were said to have come from Bangor (which is not far from Chester). There is nothing to attribute this to St Augustine (as does the Welsh clergyman) or to the assertion of Roman primacy over the Celtic Church. I live within only a few miles of the site of this purported massacre and there is no local history or legend of it.
Granted Allan’s brief notes overlook the contribution of the Celtic or Irish Church to the conversion of England but he was not writing a comprehensive history, but I think you are overcooking things. I hope the intention wasn’t to make mischief.
It’s in Gephory of Monmouth so no certainly not a 17th Century invention.
It’s discussed right on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangor-on-Dee
It’s also recorded in Bede, a historian of the side who committed it, so it’s certainly historical.
The only Pseudo history involved is that some want to directly implicate Augustine of Canterbury when he had been dead for a while already.
When you said that the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons resulted in the persecution of the British/Celtic Church you followed that up with mention of the so-called Bangor massacre. So let’s be clear about the fact that we are discussing your allegation as exemplified by the Bangor massacre.
I looked up the Bangor massacre and discovered the work of Theophilus Evans who wrote lies that St Augustine instigated an attack by Saxons upon British monks who would not acknowledge him as archbishop. That’s the only thing I can find that fits your case of persecution of Celtic Christians as a result of the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons as a result of the Roman mission. Theophilus Evans is appears in the Dictionary of Welsh Biography which describes his work as “a prejudiced and uncritical but very entertaining version of the early history of Wales”. At least you appear to admit that there was a pseudo-history implicating Augustine, but you overlook the fact that the source probably came from Geoffrey of Monmouth – no scholar takes him as a serious historian and I can’t be bothered to dig out my old copy and look because it’s rubbish, his History of the Kings of Britain is a pseudohistory, a spoof in fact. So the event is almost certainly a Welsh invention, or perhaps a later confusion with the events of the Battle of Chester ordered by the victorious pagan Athelfrith as I mentioned before.
I think that you are referring to the Battle of Chester, but why you would consider that to be a result of the English “conversion” has me wondering.
By the way no one can take Wikipedia as an authoritative source for anything, certainly not for history. Perhaps you can convince me otherwise by reference to St Bede. Bede is quite different, he was a conscientious historian making the best of what he could find in those distant days, I presume you can provide the quote from Bede to back up your assertion of a massacre of Bangor monks that resulted from the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons to Christianity?
The Battle of Chester is a product of of the Christianization of the Saxons, the Pagan Saxons were mostly letting the Briton Christians live as they wanted.
So I was correct that the event you were referring to took place at the Battle of Chester and not Bangor. I have already told you that Athelfrith was a pagan. The Northumbrian (“Saxon”/Anglian/English) army that massacred monks at the Battle of Chester was pagan. You have not made your case. You have only backed up your assertion with another one, and it is another incorrect one. Do you do this wittingly or unwittingly? It would be charitable to think the latter but I suspect it is the former. I am sorry that I wasted my time engaging with your silly posts.
The events I’m referring to are connected to that battle but also to a place call Bangor.
Bangor-on-Dee
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangor-on-Dee
Its endemic its institutional and I believe the bible that a bad tree cannot give forth good fruit. i notice you never respond to my point about Pauls Gospel of the mystery because that is the fatal blow to all denominations and as much as you dont like to admit it but that is all the RC and c of e are , denominations
I honestly couldn’t remember what your point was. Can you tell me it again?
The point is it is futile trying to say there is salvation in any form of tradition, keeping fasts, rituals etc it is a waste of debate and energy. Christ has done it all to say that there is the cross plus anything is a sin. Preach the Gospel of the mystery given to Paul that is the only place there is salvation for gentiles. Peter was not apostle to the gentiles he was the apostle to the jews and RC’s are not jews. Its a deception on an enormous scale . Thats my point and that will be my point in any debate about any subject but this is your forum so I am sure you will tire of my replies and thats ok. I wish you no ill will. all the best God bless
Richard,
The first time you commented on my page, you said the following:
“I have been listening a lot to Rabbi Manis Friedman over the last week I find his views fascinating and very useful in the real world. I have never found any Christian teachings particularly useful over the last 12 years. Most of it i find indistinguishable from most new age practices ( something my wife was heavily involved in for years before my conversion ). ”
If you don’t find Christian teachings useful, why are you trying to tell me what they mean?
God bless,
Allan
I am 65 years old i came to Christ at the age of 53 years old. For me my faith is a constant learning curve and i listen and read and learn every day. What i believed when i made my first comment about Friedman has completely changed because of reading and learning about the apostle Paul and his incredible relevance to me as a gentile. Friedman is a lost man but in the time to come for the Jews he will have a final opportunity of salvation through Christ. He does not believe in the existence sin. His views are completely irrelevant to me now and i no longer listen to him.
I have learned more in the last month than i did in the last 12 years of going to church praying and reading the bible and i beleive that is how it should be. To be stuck in a dead tradition sends shivers down my spine. Its a form of spiritual death.
i am not proposing to tell you what Christian scriptures mean. you seem to imply that i feel that scripture is irrelevant which is completely untrue It is fundamental to my faith. The lord has said that He places scripture above His own Name. The RC church places tradition above scripture. Does that mean the RC church places its own institution above the Name of God?
I asked you for your view of 1 Corinthians ch 15 v 1-4 and what its relavance was to gentiles how is that telling you what scripture means ? It is asking you for your opinion .surely that is the basis of debate?
“The RC church places tradition above scripture. Does that mean the RC church places its own institution above the Name of God?”
Can you provide a statement from the Church that says tradition is above scripture?
Obviously 1 Corinthians 15 is the focal point of world history. Every spec of grace that exists in the world and has always existed comes from that glorious event and because of that we are saved.
If you’re interested in learning about the RCC from solid Catholic priests, I could give you some names.
I am happy to read anything and would welcome the names thanks
I was thinking more of Youtube talks but if you’re into reading here are some names:
Anything by St. Francis de Sales
The Ecclesiastical history of the English People by Bede the Venerable
Also, the biography of St. Francis of Assisi that was written by St. Bonaventure
i will have a shufti
Thank you
Firstly I think both the RC and C of E churches are phoney. I am a brit and was brought up as a nominal c of e person. The c of e is not dying it is already dead and is awaiting burial just as the RC church is. The only difference between the 2 is the depth of their pockets the RC will have to hang around a little longer because of the billions it needs to spend on payouts . The c of e does not have deep pockets nor the number of pederast priests so will be buried quicker. Neither of them will be mourned but thankfully the legacy here in the Uk will be some lovely old churches .
As for fasting by roman catholics here in the UK . I am 65 years old and have never heard of a RC fasting. Without exception in my block of apartments they are all RC and none of them fast, My wife identify s as a RC and has never fasted one day in her life. There was a very informal tradition that RC would eat fish on a friday but that is it.
Hi Richard,
I had a feeling that you’d comment. I also had a feeling it would be something along these lines.
Thanks for your opinion.
God bless,
Allan