About a month ago I discovered who Mike Winger was. Shortly after that Vocab Malone had him on his livestream. I’ve watched quite a few of his videos. Like most people who attend Calvary Chapel, he’s very anti-Catholic. However, he seems like a nice guy so I think he’s worth watching.
Recently I watched a video of his where he goes into James 2 and how Protestants and Catholics differ on this in regards to the doctrine of justification. He mentioned that Catholics always bring up James 2 and he’s probably correct. For this reason, I think that Mike Winger would enjoy dialoguing with me if we encountered each other. Why? Because when I discuss the doctrine of justification with a Protestant, I never go to the book of James. The only time I go to the book of James is when they bring it up. I’m more than comfortable in arguing for the Catholic position from Romans, Ephesians or the other letters of St. Paul.
It was a bit ironic that I found this video. First of all, it’s a year old to the day. Second of all, Mike Winger is a member of Calvary Chapel and just this past weekend I had a good dialogue with a young lady who’s a member of Calvary Chapel on the doctrine of justification. We did discuss the book of James but again, it was because she wanted to go there.
Protestants ask a good question. Is justification by faith alone or is it faith plus works, baptism, or something else? This is a good question but it’s not the first question that should be asked in my opinion. The first question that should be asked is if justification is a one time event. James White often describes justification as something that one looks back on. In my opinion this is the starting point and the first question that one should ask. Protestants generally argue that justification happens at a certain point in time then it’s over and sanctification begins and continues throughout your life.
If we take a look a 1 Corinthians 1:30, we read:
And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
We need to pay attention to the word righteousness, which is the same word used in Romans 4:3. The same verse that quotes Genesis 15:6.
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
If we look at 1 Corinthians 1:30, we can look at what St. Paul writes later in the letter in 1 Corinthians 6:11 which reads:
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
In this verse we notice that St. Paul swaps the order of justified(righteousness) and sanctified. Why is that? Because the truth is that they happen simultaneously and they’re both part of a process. When we realize this, justification takes on a whole new meaning. Winger points out that Abraham was justified long before the acts listed in James 2:21. He says that Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6. That’s very true, but Abraham had faith long before that.
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
– Hebrews 11:8
These events happened in Genesis 12 which was long before the events of Genesis 15. Justification is a process. I would encourage Mike Winger to look at the saying of Abraham again in James 2 with the knowledge that justification isn’t a one time event.
I wish Mike Winger the best of luck. I honestly think he’d be a great Catholic; both him and Lauren Chen aka Roaming Millennial. Perhaps I should do a post addressing her objections.
I would recommend the book Not by Faith Alone by Robert Sungenis to anyone interested in this topic. He did a debate with James White(who has a book on this subject as well) on justification if you want to save some time. Not by Faith Alone is almost 800 pages after all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L14UNjaZJm8&t=2512s – I don’t know if you’ve ever come across these sedevacantist guys, but they’ve done some serious homework here. I really don’t like them (they’ve said some quite false and nasty things about Eastern Orthodoxy), but this video of theirs is pretty much on point.
Hi OrangeHunter,
They say nasty things about everyone. They have a total lack of charity; but like you said, they have some good stuff including that video. I think James White talked about it briefly but hasn’t tried to respond to it. It’s good stuff.
God bless,
Allan
Rather than refer to St Paul or St James when considering this subject I prefer to go to what Jesus taught.
Jesus told us to believe in him, he also told us to actually do things.
Mk 10:17-21
17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honour your father and mother.’ ” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth.” 21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
This is just one example.
I am always amazed by Protestants’ insistence on justification by faith alone. I suppose its a hang-up from the reaction against the Catholic Church selling indulgences back in the day. They also seem to ignore that Paul is referring more specifically to works of law (inc. circumcision etc.). However there is not need to even argue about that. Ss Paul and James are wise counsellors and we can gain much insight from reading what they had to say, but what they have to say are opinions and interpretations. We do not follow them, we follow Jesus Christ.
Pastor Mike,
I want to commend as a protestant pastor for taking on James Chapter 2 versus 14-26. I think most protestants just want to avoid this part of the bible because it is a hard passage if you believe that only faith is needed for salvation and not works. However, I think you do a good job of explaining the Catholic position on faith and works. If works are needed in proving true faith, doesn’t that mean that works are needed for salvation? I know your position is that works are a result of true faith. However, if works are a result of true faith, that still means that they are needed for salvation. Jesus’s death on the cross and his resurrection gave us salvation. All Christians must believe this if they are a Christian. Without that, there can be no salvation no matter what we as humans do on earth. However, we as Christians then have a responsibility to do good works to then get to heaven. You mentioned the sacraments of the Catholic Church. For Catholics, the sacraments are showing our faith in Jesus. Receiving the Eucharist is an act of faith. Confession is an act of faith. Confirmation is an act of faith. Anointing of the sick is an act of faith. You claim these are not part of the list of good works that are in the bible. This may be so but does that mean they are not still acts of faith? Catholics do many good works apart from the sacraments. You make it sound like Catholics do no good works and just follow the sacraments as proof of good works. Your changing of the meaning of justify also bothered me. In my opinion, James uses justify to mean salvation throughout the entire passage. You also mentioned Luther. He wanted to remove the book of James from the bible. Why did he want to do this? Was it because James contradicts his idea of faith alone? I am sure you are aware of the youtube channel that is named How to be Christian. This channel addresses much better than I can your ideas on faith and good works along with other criticisms you have of the Catholic Church. Please go to that channel and address anything you see there. By the way, this channel directly discusses your interpretation of Galatians 1:6-9.
I believe neither Faith or Works is needed for Salvation, Justification is something more specific.
There are Catholic Theologians who support Universal Salvation.
“There are Catholic Theologians who support Universal Salvation.”
Do any Saints or Doctors of the Church support Universal Salvation?
Gregory of Nyssa for certain, affirmed by the 7th Ecumenical Council as the Father of the Father.
Can you provide a quote from Gregory of Nyssa?
Here’s a related quote from Scheeben’s theology book (Book VIII, section 282, p.550-551 in the archive.org version).
The teaching of the Fathers on the eternity of Hell is almost unanimous. (…) The great Origen, it is true, held that all men, and even the devils, would be saved at last (De Princ. i.6, In Josu. Hom. viii) ; and his teaching to some etxent influenced the opinions of St. Gregory of Nyssa (Or. Cat., 26), St. Gregory of Nazianzum, St. Ambrose, and St. Jerome (In Is. , xiv. 20). St.Gregory of Nazianzum hoped that sinners would not be punished for ever ; St. Jerome that at least sinners who were Catholics would not be so punished. St. Ambrose’s opinion was that men not devils may be purified and restored even after condemnation at the judgment.
But the long catena of passages quoted by Petavius proves that these were merely exceptions to the general teaching. Origen’s views were condemned by the Fifth Ecumenical Council (553), which brands the doctrine of restoration as monstrous (canon i). The Fourth Lateran Council (c. Firmiter) and the Council of Trent (sess. vi. c. 14; sess. xiv. can. 5) speak of “everlasting punishment” (poena perpetua), “eternal punishment” and “eternal damnation”.
No, Nysaa wasn’t influenced by Origen. The Anathamas of the Fifth Ecumenical Council are all about condeming the Plaotnist Prexistience doctrine that had come to be associated with Origen.
Scripture Teaches Unviersal Salvation, so did Nyssa and most of the Antiochene school. And before Augustine and Cyril few explicitly contradicted it, none of the Pre-Nicene Fathers contradicted it.
The only Pre On Thousand AD Council to explicitly condemn denying “endless torment” was the Iconaclast Council later overuled by Nicaea II.
JaredMithrandir : can you tell us where “Scripture Teaches Universal Salvation” ?
Romans 5, 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Timothy 2 and 4, Ezekiel 16. My Blog talks about many more.
I just made a new post on the issue of alleged condemnation of Universal Salvation.
Dear Mr Winger. I hope you are well.
My name is Fabrizio Tommasi and I would like assistance and God willing I will make right with you.
My wife’s son is caught up with ( I would say) a strange group. “bible academy”.
He seems to avoid saying or acknowledging the name of Jesus. I have tried searching and found a key figure, pastor curtis omo! But in his intro on ‘you tube’ he mentions the name Jesus Christ..?
I am from Namibia, Africa, and I don’t know who to ask besides Jesus Christ for His intervention.
The movement of the “bible academy” is also here in Namibia and the lady my wife spoke to also had a issue with the acknowledgement of saying Jesus Christ???
Looking forward to hearing from you soon.
God bless.