The Talmud
It’s a bit annoying that Jews and Muslims don’t debate each other on religion. Christians debate Muslims. Christians debate Jews. Jews don’t debate Muslims. The most that I’ve seen is Zakir Hussain dialoguing with some Jew at Speakers Corner on whether or not Muhammad is the prophet in Deuteronomy 18. Apart from this, the only debate between Jews and Muslims that seems to happen revolves around the legitimacy of the state of Israel; a debate that I have absolutely no interest in.
Now, Jews and Muslims both accept legends of things that happened in the period of the Torah that are outside the Torah. Jews believe that an Oral Torah was given along with the written Torah on Mount Sinai. This Oral Torah was eventually put into writing a couple of centuries after Jesus Christ and today makes up a large portion of the Talmud.
The Muslim extra-Torah tradition doesn’t come from the period of Moses but of Abraham. There is an Islamic belief that Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba and established it as a house of prayer and pilgrimage. In Surah 2:127 we read:
As Abraham raises the foundations of the House, together with Ishmael, “Our Lord, accept it from us, You are the Hearer, the Knower.
The context derives from Surah 2:125 which reads:
And We made the House a focal point for the people, and a sanctuary. Use the shrine of Abraham as a place of prayer. And We commissioned Abraham and Ishmael, “Sanctify My House for those who circle around it, and those who seclude themselves in it, and those who kneel and prostrate.”
Now, of course this view is completely absent from the Torah that we have today. This was the Torah used by Jesus, Mary, John the Baptist, and the apostles of Christ. All of these figures are said to be Muslims with Jesus and John being prophets and Mary being the holiest woman who ever lived. This Torah has over ten chapters specifically regarding Abraham but no Kaaba episode with Ishmael.
So, from the Christian perspective both Jews and Muslims have traditions that are absent from the Torah. I would argue that they go against the Torah but I won’t go there just yet. Now, we know that Jews don’t accept the story with Abraham and Ishmael and Muslims don’t accept the story of the Oral Torah given to Moses and the Israelites on Mount Sinai.
I know that Muslims and Jews both read this website. I have a question for both groups. Why do you accept your specific belief and not the other one? What standards allow for your belief but excludes theirs? I would like to hear from both parties. I would also like to hear Christians weigh in on these two beliefs and say which one has the better case.
The Torah is a unique document. All three of the Abrahamic religions believe in the Torah to a certain extent. All three religions believe that Moses received the Torah on Mount Sinai. The only question is, what about these extra-Torah beliefs? Muslim vs. Jewish. Hajj vs. Oral Torah. To my Muslim and Jewish readers: Let’s hear your case for your position over and against the other! Ready, Go!!!!
We do have evidence that the Torah has had an oral component. The examples are widely used against Protestants. In St. Matthew’s Gospel 23:2-3, Christ teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based “on Moses’ seat,” but you can’t find this term anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of “teaching succession” from Moses on down. Also, in 1 Corinthians 10:4 St. Paul refers to a rock that “followed” the Jews through the Sinai wilderness. But this story is not in the Old Testament. It’s found, however, in rabbinic tradition. A third example is provided in 2 Timothy 3:8, where St. Paul mentions Jannes and Jambres opposing St. Moses, whose names do not appear in the OT, but in some Aramaic targums and Essene writings from Qumran.
Hello OrangeHunter,
Христос воскрес!
While I agree with you that there were traditions, including some validated by our Lord Jesus Christ and St. Paul, is there proof that they go back to Sinai? This is where the issue comes in.
Also, what do you think of the Islamic claim regarding the Hajj?
God bless,
Allan
Воистину воскрес!
I don’t think that it matters if these traditions can be traced back to Sinai or not. They probably can, given that all three are directly connected to the content of the Torah. It’s also important that neither Christ, nor St. Paul go into details about them, which means that people back then were familiar with the said traditions. Christ affirmed the authority of the “Moses’ seat”, and that’s pretty telling, given that the “Seat” is not a Biblical institution.
As for the Hajj, that’s just another wild claim of our Muslim friends. Just like other things in Islam, it’s a repacked version of a pagan custom that existed in Arabia before the rise of Islam.
May God help us all.