Christ the King
When reading the Gospels, we see that Jesus Christ made great claims about himself. He referred to himself as many things but the question is, did he claim to be the Prophet like Moses in Deuteronomy 18? Muslims like to point to Muhammad and say that he is the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18. The truth is, when we look at the words of Christ and His apostles, there is no way that this passage could refer to Muhammad, Joseph Smith, or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. If anyone professes to believe in Christ, you have to follow what He says; so what does He say about this issue?
Let us first look to the Gospel of John. In Chapter 5, verse 46 and 47, in a dialogue with Jewish leaders, our Lord writes:
“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
Jesus Christ is saying that Moses wrote about Him. This is obviously a reference to the five books of Moses. It should be pointed out that there are no Messianic prophecies in the Torah. What we do have is the Prophet like Moses in Deuteronomy 18. That’s the only possibility writing he could be referring to as this prophet hadn’t yet shown up. It’s also worth noting that Jesus Christ specifically identified the Torah as being written by Moses. Followers of Jesus Christ must accept that the Torah was written by Moses since He did Himself. This is really bad for the liberals out there.
In Luke 24:44, Jesus Christ says:
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Jesus Christ is clearly prophesied in the Torah and the Psalms. We can look at Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, but what about the Law of Moses? The only place where He could be written about in the Law of Moses is Deuteronomy 18.
In verse 45, we read:
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
Christ was speaking to His disciples when he said this. In the book of Acts, we see Peter confronting the Jews and in Acts 3, verses 21 and 22 speaks of Christ as the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18. Peter had had his mind opened by Christ to understand the Scriptures. He said the following to the Jews:
For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’
From what Christ and His disciple Peter say, it is clear that Christ communicated that He was the Prophet spoken about in Deuteronomy 18. This is the official Christian position. This is the Islamic position as well since Jesus Christ and His disciples are devout Muslims according to Islamic sources.
Your cheerleader orange guy already tried this and was refuted. None of those alleged quotes from Jesus explicitly link to the Deuteronomy 18 prophecy. He just says that the prophets spoke of him, but that could just mean they prophesied the Messiah, which was Jesus. You guys are so desperate, you have to resort to non-sequiturs.
Replying does not equal refuting. You failed to refute me on anything. I challenge you to cite just one passage from the Torah that contains prophecy about the Messiah. You say it’s not Deuteronomy 18. So which is it? Christ said that Moses wrote on him. Show me the passage. And since you insist Deuteronomy 18 is about Mahomet, be consistent and show me where your profit said the passage is about him. No “lols” and “rofls”, no ad hominem and ad nauseam, no fake excuses. Just provide the two citations I asked you for. A fair and simple challenge. Oh, show me also where in the Quran Eesa says he is the Messiah. This should be a piece of cake for you.
You should see his last response to me. He took the position of liberal Biblical scholars over that of his Messiah on Torah authorship. It’s things like that which caused me to think that he was an atheist in the first place.
I’ve already seen it. This man has very serious comprehension issues. All of his “refutations” are nothing but samples of buffoonery. I’ll pray for him.
I tried to explain my argument about first century manuscripts to him about four times and he still hasn’t understood it. He obviously doesn’t know how ancient documents work. When I exposed him on his ridiculous standards for 1st century manuscripts for John, he just dodged it and got into variants and authorship issues. Tis the glorious apologetics of Faiz.
Faiz says:
Scholars believe that the modern “Torah” was not written by Moses at all, but was the result of centuries of development and used different sources. On this matter, the Israeli scholars Finkelstein and Silberman state:
Jesus Christ says:
For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?
– John 5:46-67
Who said: Moses permitted to write a bill of divorce, and to put her away. To whom Jesus answering, said: Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you that precept.
– Mark 10:4-5
In Christianity we listen to what Christ says and not Finkelstein, Silberman or any other “scholars” who contradict the Messiah.
LOL, still no sensible responses! Christian apologetics is in dire straits, alhamdulillah!
I’ll pray that God gives you guys half a brain so you can use your reason!
LOL, another typical Ruhlian response. Nothing objective, just mindless babble. I showed you evidence of even older manuscripts surviving. You are just too arrogant and proud to admit the facts. If you want to delude yourself and your groupie, go right ahead. Just don’t expect the rest of us to be as delusional as you are.
“I showed you evidence of even older manuscripts surviving.”
You absolutely did. I never denied this, but this wasn’t my argument. You’ve shown again that you didn’t understand what I was saying. I believe we’re at five failed attempts.
I believe you just don’t want to admit the facts. How come fragments in a garbage dump from the 2nd century BCE have survived, but you Christians couldn’t even save one from the 1st century? That’s five failed attempts by Christian apologists to be humble and admit they are mistaken. Too bad…
Ruhlian claim: “No first century book or document has first century manuscripts.”
The reality: We have numerous documents that have survived from the time they were written to the present-day, some as far back as the 2nd century BCE, and yet somehow, the Christians were too incompetent to save even one of their prized “gospels” or “epistles”!
None of the apologists on this blog have been able to explain this.
Allan, you are obviously incapable of having an objective dialogue. It’s quite pathetic. But alas, that is the inevitable result of being brainwashed by the false and deceptive religion called Christianity. Oh well…Maybe when you’re a little wiser and have freed yourself from your a priori beliefs, you will see the light.
And yes, the so-called “Torah” in your Bible is the result of centuries of development, with multiple authors and source material. This is a fact, which no amount of special pleading will refute. You are obviously unable to prove otherwise, which is why you have resorted to the typical apologetic cop-out: it’s “liberal” scholarship. Like I said, it’s quite pathetic.
Orange guy, are you saying that Moses never prophesied the coming of the Messiah? LOL, oh the irony! Hey Allan, do you realize that your groupie is using a “liberal” argument? Liberal scholars believe that the concept of the Messiah was a later development, and they point to the absence of any clear reference to the Messiah in the Pentateuch as evidence.
Of course, orange guy is so stupid and ignorant that he fails to realize that the Pentateuch speaks of the “latter days” which is understood to mean the days of the Messiah by Jews.
Hey orange guy, find any rabbits that chew the cud? 😉
1.”Orange guy, are you saying that Moses never prophesied the coming of the Messiah?”- I’ve never said such thing. I’ve just asked you a simple question and you failed to answer it.
2. I don’t care what liberal scholars say. Their opinions are no source of authority for Christians. I cite them only when dawamongers like you bring them up.
3. I don’t care about vague talk about “Pentateuch speaking of “the latter days”. I asked you to provide specific passage from the Torah that speaks of the Messiah. Jesus said “Moses wrote about Me”. You say He did not mean Deutheronomy 18. I’ll ask again: which passage did he have in mind? I don’t care about vague references and red herrings, I want exact passage.
4.”Hey orange guy, find any rabbits that chew the cud?”- yeah, right next to the murky pool where the sun sets- you know, the one where the anonymous Dull Qarnayn drowned while taking a bath. How do you know if the text refers to rabbits? Or how do you know that rabbits (at least some of them) didn’t chew the cud 3,500 years ago? You said yourself organisms change over time.
In conclusion: you failed to answer all three challenges I posed to you. Better luck next time.
“I’ve never said such thing. I’ve just asked you a simple question and you failed to answer it.”
So then your idiotic argument that the Messiah is never mentioned in the Pentateuch is moot. Once again, it seems you have no idea what you are talking about and are here for more embarrassment.
“I don’t care what liberal scholars say. Their opinions are no source of authority for Christians. I cite them only when dawamongers like you bring them up.”
LOL, this is the attitude of every brainwashed crosstian. But it is not a logical argument. It is a fallacy. If you feel these “liberal” scholars are wrong, then prove it. It shoudn’t be too hard. But alas, it must be hard because all you guys do is bad mouth these scholars. That by itself shows that you feel threatened by the evidence that counters your religious propaganda.
“I don’t care about vague talk about “Pentateuch speaking of “the latter days”. I asked you to provide specific passage from the Torah that speaks of the Messiah. Jesus said “Moses wrote about Me”. You say He did not mean Deutheronomy 18. I’ll ask again: which passage did he have in mind? I don’t care about vague references and red herrings, I want exact passage.”
LOL, you just denied that Moses did NOT prophesy about the Messiah and now you are asking for a specific verse? I could care less about your idiotic opinions. A prophecy about the “latter days” was interpreted by Jews as referring to the Messianic age. Deuteronomy 18, on the other hand, was not interpreted in a Messianic way, as shown by the DSS and even the gospel of John.
“yeah, right next to the murky pool where the sun sets- you know, the one where the anonymous Dull Qarnayn drowned while taking a bath. How do you know if the text refers to rabbits? Or how do you know that rabbits (at least some of them) didn’t chew the cud 3,500 years ago? You said yourself organisms change over time.”
HAHAHAHA, I can you are really struggling with this! I love it! No, idiot, rabbits from 3,500 years ago wouldn’t have been ruminants. That would require a complete overhaul of their digestive system, which if left to chance (as evolutionists maintain) would take hundreds of millions of years (if a chance change was even possible, which it is not). You are definitely clueless about how to save your Bible from this problem.
Perhaps you can provide proof for your mutant rabbit from 3,500 years ago, hm? While you are at it, see if you can find a vegan lion too! LOL!!
1. “So then your idiotic argument that the Messiah is never mentioned in the Pentateuch is moot. Once again, it seems you have no idea what you are talking about and are here for more embarrassment.”- The embarrassment is for you, because it’s not my argument, it’s yours. Which means you claim the Quran is wrong (which I already know, but thanks for affirming it.) You wont get away so easy. This is your second failure to answer the simple and honest challenge I posed to you. I’ll repeat again: Cite the exact passage which Christ had in mind when He said “Moses wrote about Me”. You said it is not in Detheronomy 18. Then where is it?
2. “It is a fallacy.”- says the joke that complains about Orientalists blasting the Quran. “Fallacy” is the one word that summarizes all your posts.
3. “If you feel these “liberal” scholars are wrong, then prove it.”- I don’t have to prove anything. You brought them in the “discussion”, so the burden of proof is on you. You need to prove they’re right. You committed the fallacy of shifting the burden of proof.
4. “That by itself shows that you feel threatened by the evidence that counters your religious propaganda.”- pfff, was this even meant as an argument? More like another sample of your buffoonery. Religious propaganda is the false claim that Christ evaded the crucifixion- it lacks any evidence and it is rejected by liberal scholars.
5. “LOL, you just denied that Moses did NOT prophesy about the Messiah and now you are asking for a specific verse?”- lol, I did nothing like this. You failed to answer my three simple challenges and resort to this false accusation? Quite desperate.
6. “A prophecy about the “latter days” was interpreted by Jews as referring to the Messianic age. Deuteronomy 18, on the other hand, was not interpreted in a Messianic way, as shown by the DSS and even the gospel of John.”- I’ve already told you, I don’t care about your vague references about “prophecy about the “latter days”. Show me the exact passage you refer to. DSS also do not show any Jewish belief about an Arabian profit, but you don’t seem to be crying your eyes over this. As for St.John’s Gospel, this proves nothing.
7. As I pointed out, we’re not sure if the passage mentions rabbits at all. Appealing to what evolutionists say is very un-Islamic, given that the vast majority of the Umma rejects the theory of evolution. Your response holds no water at all, at least from Islamic perspective. You are one truly bad Muslim.
Since this is the second time you fail to respond to my challenges, Ill reiterate them:
1. Show me the exact Torah passage that speaks of the Messiah;
2. Show me where Mahomet said that Deutheronomy 18 is actually abiout him.
3. Show me where Eesa said in the fully detailed Quran “I am the Messiah”.
No vague references, no “lols”, no false accusations, no red herrings. Just plain and simple quotations of the passages I asked for. It should be very easy for you.
I should also point out that with all of the attacks from Faiz on the OT, he’s actually refuting his own faith since Muslims must believe in the OT. They must believe in it because several devout Muslims and Prophets believed in it. They are Jesus, John the Baptist, the Virgin Mary, and the disciples of Christ. All Muslims and Jesus and John were prophets. He gets a break on the NT since technically no prophet endorsed the NT as scripture as it was written after Christ. Still, he’s stuck with the OT. He’d better join us in defending it or else he’s falsified his own religion. You wonder why I thought this guy was an atheist. He’s going after his own faith!
I’m not sure he understands what you’re saying. He is more interested in shoveling as much verbiage as possible. I still bother with him only because this prompts him to respond over and over again, which reduces the time he has to bark at other Christians.