I’ve seen this little Muslim meme trending online lately so it’s time for me to respond to it. It’s actually not hard to respond to in the slightest. The Christian has a few options and I’m going to go through them. Ijaz Ahmad has put this on his website and it’s getting a lot of attention. Unfortunately no one is responding to it properly. This type of argument is exactly what to expect from street dawah and dawah booths in Western countries. We need to be prepared. Before you read any further, think about how you might respond to this.
The first option is the worst, and it’s to respond with Trinitarian proof texts from the Bible. Now, the Trinity is fully provable from the texts of scripture but this move isn’t wise in my opinion. This is because we can gain a much easier victory. It also doesn’t respond to their presupposition. You’re essentially doing what they want. You can win in this regard but there are much easier ways to go about it.
The second option is to throw Surah 5 at them and show them the Quran’s utter collapse in dealing with the Christian belief. I recently wrote a post on this and it can be found here:
This defence will work in diverting the conversation away from the Trinity in one sense and onto the Quran. In modern dawah the Quran is Allah’s perfect book. Showing them that it gives the worst arguments against and representation of the Trinity ever recorded will shift the debate in your favour and put their Quran in the dock.
That’s the second option. It works very well. The third option is to take the presuppositional approach which is also fun and effective. Essentially we have to use logic to show that their arguments carry no weight. Here’s what we do.
We first ask them if a document has to say “God is three” to teach Trinitarianism. If they accept this meme and most Muslims who engage in dawah will, they will say yes.
At this point, give them a history lesson. Tell them that the doctrine of the Trinity was officially codified at the councils of Nicaea in 325 AD and Constantinople in 381 AD. They’ll certainly agree with this.
At this point, we share with them that in the creeds produced at these councils we don’t find the words “God is three”, “three”, or “Trinity”. We then state to them that a document doesn’t have to say three in it to prove that it teaches the Trinity. In fact the first line of the Nicene-Constantinople Creed is:
Credo in unum Deum
This translates as “I believe in one God” which is a phrase that the Muslims will agree with. Now they won’t agree with the rest of the creed but nowhere in that creed does it use the word three, yet the Creed teaches the Trinity without a doubt.
They only have two options at this point. The first is that they will deny that the Creed teaches the Trinity which is absolutely impossible to do. The second and more likely option is to move on to a different point. They probably won’t want to concede the point, they’ll just try to move on. Don’t let them do this. Tell them that before we move on to the next point, they have to admit that a document doesn’t have to say “God is three” to teach the Trinity. This will ensure that you’re up one point before you go onto the next thing that they want to talk about. Hopefully it will also get them to reconsider their dawah tactics as well. It’s really not hard to respond to any of these memes or soundbites.
And the Quran does not state that Mary is a part of the Trinity, if you are in the mood for asking for explicit quotations.
It likely refers to excessive veneration of Mary.
White gives one example of Marian devotion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLf4AOQ2ZpI
Start at 0:01:15 and 5:20 would be a nice place to conclude
You are asking for specific wording saying that “God is three”? Now, orthodox Christians believe that there are three elements/persons of the Godhead. Now if one says that one of the two, Jesus or the Holy Spirit, is not part of the God, they would be branded as heretics historically. Thus, it is necessary for an orthodox Christian/Catholic to affirm that there are three elements of the Godhead. One cannot escape the practical implication that Christians regard God as three or a trinity. There are three persons who are called “God” with the same divine substance as the Father, thus three are three Gods.
So the Nicene Creed claims, like the Shema, that God is one. But it claims that there are other entities that are “consubstantial” with the One (ahad). It would seem that there are other partners who have the same substance of God who are practically worthy of the same worship afforded to God the Father. A Muslim or a Jew would identify that at shirk.
Hi Latias,
“And the Quran does not state that Mary is a part of the Trinity, if you are in the mood for asking for explicit quotations.”
I’m not asking for specific quotations. I’m simply refuting those who do by showing that its poor logic. If you read Surah 5:73 its clearly attacking Trinitarian belief since Christians are saying that God is three. In verse 75 is goes on to say Jesus and Mary ate food, in other words arguing for their humanity and not divinity. This argument finally concludes with Surah 5:116 which says:
“And God will say, “O Jesus son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Take me and my mother as gods rather than God?’“ He will say, “Glory be to You! It is not for me to say what I have no right to. Had I said it, You would have known it. You know what is in my soul, and I do not know what is in Your soul. You are the Knower of the hidden.”
This creates the clear context for verses 73 and 75. The Quran is clearly in error on this point. If not, I invite you to offer a consistent exegesis contrary to mine.
Marian veneration is one thing. Whether Mary is part of the Trinity is another. Let’s say that for the sake of argument that Catholics give too much veneration to Mary. They don’t regard her as part of the Trinity.
“You are asking for specific wording saying that “God is three”?”
No, that is what the meme I’m responding to is asking. Neither the Bible or the Nicene creed have these words, though they both teach the Doctrine of the Trinity. I’m just exposing the logic of the person who made the meme. You don’t have to accept this meme if you don’t want to, however many Muslims are promoting this online.
Regarding the Nicene Creed and its statements about God, it’s simply describing the nature of the one God. In fact, it’s only possible to make sense of the complex view of God in the OT with a Trinitarian view of God. The Unitarian view of God won’t hold up or give a consistent reading.
God Bless,
Allan
1.”There are three persons who are called “God” with the same divine substance as the Father, thus three are three Gods.”- nope, this is not Christianity. In Christianity God manifests Himself in three Persons, and Is still One God. Besides, Hebrew word “ekhad” could refer to compound unity.
2.”A Muslim or a Jew would identify that at shirk.”- a Muslim(ah) needs to be more careful when identifying Christian beliefs, otherwise the identification would backfire quite badly. Muslims are (at least) Binitarians (they believe in Allah and the Quran, the latter being part of Allah’s own nature but not identical with Allah and having its own conscience. Sometimes it (he?) even prays to Allah or intercedes on behalf of Muslims).
3. Allan, the Ijaz fellow is just tireless. Here’s the latest effort of this wretched dawamonger, and it seems to be gaining popularity:
Hi Orangehunter,
I’ll let Latias handle 1 and 2 since it was directed at her. In regards to 3, I’m well aware of that video. I have to unfortunately follow his work since he’s a big name in apologetics and(to his credit) produces a lot of content.
God Bless,
Allan
What I find really astonishing is his inability to understand that using sophisticated arguments against Christianity does more damage to Islam, as the arguments against Christians in the Quran are fairly primitive and mediocre. What Ijaz does in reality is a mere demonstration that he knows better than his own god. It’s pathetic, but in a somehow charming way.
The Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 happens to use the word ‘echad’ for one, which applies to multiple objects grouped into one. An alternative word ‘yachid’ which is purely singular could be used, but wasn’t.
Same goes for Genesis 1:1, where ‘Elohim’ denotes three or more but ‘bara’ (created) is a verb for a singular.
I can recommend looking into the Jewish ‘two powers in heaven’ binitarian view, which Nabeel Qureshi briefly raised in his debate with Shabir Ally ‘Tawhid or Trinity’.
Hi Scott,
This is good stuff. I learnt all of this years ago when I read Michael Brown’s second volume on Jewish apologetics.
God Bless,
Allan